Chris Parker: Hello, this is Chris Parker with the Business Simplicity Podcast. I had a conversation with Werner Spronk. He is a recruiter and headhunter with Tech Terra Search here in the Netherlands, and he’s focusing on Chief Product Officers and Chief Technology Officers, or the combination of CPTOs. We had a very interesting conversation about his approach, which doesn’t only look at the candidates in the search, but actually the entire leadership team dynamic, the mix, the personalities, the skills, and preferences there. Sometimes even the work type and how those individuals are energized. The point of this is to not only select the right person but really to contribute to having that person be a net add to the team on a long term. It’s a really nice approach. So, Werner, why would it be really valuable for people to listen to this?

Werner Spronk: I believe that if you understand the true team dynamics—what makes a team strong, what makes a team not strong—and if you have proper insight into those, you can hire someone who makes the entire team stronger. Especially on the C-level, I think 70%, 80%, maybe 85% of the success of a person is how they fit into that leadership team. So that should be central when you want to hire someone, when you want to add someone to the team.

Chris Parker: Welcome back to the Business Simplicity Podcast. This is Chris Parker, and I’m having a conversation with Werner Spronk. He is a recruiter and headhunter with his own firm called Tech Terra Search. His specialty is right up my alley, meaning Chief Technology Officers, Chief Product Officers, and CPTOs—these hybrid beasts that sometimes I fit into as well. I love it on his LinkedIn; he says he occasionally does CEOs and Commercial Officers, but he’s primarily in the tech and product space in the mid-market and scale-up space.

Werner, you have a certain method that I thought was really cool, and I’m excited to unpack it with you. That method is a way of understanding how a new tech or product leader can best land in a leadership team for the most value. But before we go into that, tell us a little bit about how you got to this point of running Tech Terra with this focus and in this unique way.

Werner Spronk: Thank you. I like being here a lot. If I go back really far, I’m always about understanding something first before judging. I think I stumbled into the domain of a recruiter; there’s no education for it. I think most people somehow end up in it without it being a conscious decision. I noticed that I really like being able to do something for people and for companies. It’s a very people-driven job, but also quite commercial, which blended really well.

When I started in this job 12 years ago, the product position in many companies was still not that mature. So it was pretty complex understanding what type of person you need, how they fit within the company, and what success looks like. That’s why I like the product domain.

What I’ve seen in recruitment and headhunting is that it’s really strange that people focus up to doing a placement and then they take their hands off. That’s supposedly the job of the company or the candidate, but that’s where the journey actually starts. If you look at what makes someone successful in a leadership team, experience and hard skills are hygiene factors—they are a must-have. But what really differentiates if someone is successful is whether they are a fit with the assignment of what the company needs to do and how they fit within that leadership team.

Chris Parker: To do so, you have to assess the leadership team to understand whether they are fit for the future and fit for purpose. And the leadership team has to be open to doing that.

Werner Spronk: Exactly. Before you jump into working on an assignment, you have to have a completely different conversation—quite often with founders in my case—about why they are doing what they’re doing. Are they doing things that give them energy or drain energy? Is it based on ego, or because they don’t see another way?

How I came to my proposition nowadays is that I not only want to find the person that does the job, but I want to find the person that makes the entire team stronger. The job is way more interesting because you end up somewhere between being a coach, a headhunter, and a consultant designing teams. You can help them be successful: how to connect with the team, how to connect with their leader better, and then you start truly making an impact.

Chris Parker: I did a little research, and I couldn’t find any metrics of failure or success for CPTOs specifically. But what I was able to find is a number of risks or known issues. One is bringing the wrong playbook—coming in with a heavy enterprise bureaucratic approach for a smaller scale-up. It’s just not going to fit.

Another issue is when founders are still there. Founders have these personality-driven approaches rather than role-driven ones. If a new Head of Product comes in, does the founder give it away? Are they synced up on prioritization? I think there are so many opportunities for this to go wrong. The thing that triggered me about your approach was that you looked at the management team. It wasn’t only the relationship between the Head of Product and the CEO, but the team dynamic. How did you get to this point where you realized you needed a more holistic approach?

Werner Spronk: I’m quite a curious person, so I always like to find new approaches. Four or five years ago, I got the question quite often: “Do we need a CTO, a CPO, or a CPTO?” I started thinking, can I make a decision tree for this? I did about 30 to 35 interviews with CTOs, CPOs, and CEOs. I found there were so many variables that I couldn’t make a simple decision tree.

So, I went back to those people and asked a different question: “What do I need to ask to understand the context to make the right choice?” That ended up in what I call a “Quick Scan.” It’s between 25 to 30 questions which I use to understand the company, the team, the situation, and the assignment, and then work backwards to getting a profile.

During those discussions, I noticed that people would almost never talk about the team aspect, which is really strange. If I asked, “How do you focus on the team?”, it was often based on gut feel. For me, that was strange because I’ve never seen a C-level hire fail because they lacked hard skills. It’s almost always the team part.

Chris Parker: If I’m understanding this correctly, you’re actually talking about the dynamic between the CEO, probably the CTO, and the new leader. You seem to also be looking at the shift or change this new role brings. You’re looking at a system here, as opposed to just filling a seat on the bus. Is this remarkably different than a typical recruiting process?

Werner Spronk: I believe it is. Normally recruitment or headhunting focuses on a person. If assessments are being done, it’s based on that person. It’s almost never about the team. I’ve only seen one other person doing this in the Netherlands.

I often work with founders who were able to spot their blind spots but were not able to act upon them. I’ve seen it go wrong there. Quite often when someone starts, they do a good job for the first six to nine months. But when pressure hits, or things don’t go as smoothly as expected, tiny things that people felt underwater start to become big things. That becomes the reason for not going further together. That is almost always in the team part or the internal collaboration.

Chris Parker: It sounds like what you’re expressing is that there could be a “lazy” way—just assess the candidate’s hard skills and bring them in. But your way requires a deeper investment of time, energy, reflection, and self-awareness. Can you walk us through the process from the eyes of a CEO? Imagine a founder CEO calls you and says, “Warner, we need a Chief Product Officer.” How does that go?

Werner Spronk: Funny thing is, I don’t pitch at all. I always start by asking a lot of questions. In the end, I say, “I think I can help you, but it’s up to you to decide.” One of the things that needs to happen during that first interview is that I give the other people feedback on what they are doing, what probably works for them, and what doesn’t. If that resonates, I’m in. If it doesn’t resonate, I’m completely out.

Ideally, the CEO needs to be flexible and adaptive to not having his first question (“Do you know what we need?”) answered within 15 minutes. I need a lot more time. I need to understand the CEO, the team, and the assignment. I have to talk to five people for that—usually three, four, or five team members. Then I do an assessment with all those people. Then I give them a Quick Scan debrief with advice on the team, and then I come up with a profile.

Chris Parker: That is remarkable. In processes I’ve been in, as a candidate, I have to do an assessment. I’ve often asked, “Can I see the same assessment for the team I’m joining?” That would give me insight. You’re actually doing it. How do you assess those five people?

Werner Spronk: I use three different perspectives to understand better what the person is good at, what gives them energy, how they collaborate, and how they act under pressure.

First, I use the Big Five Personality traits. It is trait-based and scientifically backed. It helps understand how people relate to each other. For example, if you have three people in a team with a lot of willpower, probably you don’t need a fourth because you’re just going to get a big fight.

The second tool is an Archetype model, which identifies eight archetypes—like Strategist, Builder, Innovator, Coach, or Communicator. It focuses on what gives you energy and where you feel good.

The last one is the Job Fulfillment Matrix. This is a 2×2 matrix: energizing vs. draining on one axis, and good at it vs. bad at it on the other. I ask people to list their main tasks and plot them on this map. In the end, you want to be where it gives you energy and where you’re good at it. Most teams have 60-80% of their tasks in the “good at it and energizing” quadrant. The friction is in the tasks that don’t give energy or where they are bad at it.

Chris Parker: How do you use that insight to come up with a new constellation for the team?

Werner Spronk: If you find the gaps and understand what the company needs to do, you can say, “Maybe we want to hire someone who is strong at that particular perspective.” Then it becomes interesting: do you want someone complimentary to you, or someone who can cross the bridge between where you are right now and where you want to go?

For example, I worked with a startup that wanted to work with big corporates. Do they hire someone who is extremely good with procedures and structure (like a corporate), or do you hire someone who is in between the big corporate and them? Having those understandings of where you are as a person and as a team allows you to have the right discussion about whether that candidate is the right contribution to your team.

Chris Parker: It’s almost “hire the smile and train the rest,” but for executives. If you hire for the personality, engagement, and service, you can fill in the hard skills. I think looking forward, with AI, finding people and selecting on hard skills will be automated in two or three years. So the job of recruitment will shift completely. What is the added value of people in the future? It’s the “Human IP”—understanding stress, motivations, and relationships.

Werner Spronk: Absolutely. AI won’t be able to do that in the near future. AI can detect things like stress, but does it know where the stress comes from? Is the person intimidated by you? Did they have a bad announcement just before? Are they stressed because they have to pick up their kids? From a human perspective, if you can see something is happening, address it, and understand why, that is where the trust and magic happen.

Chris Parker: Before we wrap up, how can people apply this wisdom on their own if they aren’t working with you?

Werner Spronk: The best interview is where the other one speaks more than you do. As a candidate, you have the right to ask the right questions and flip the vibe. Make sure you have your list of questions going in. Ask the unspoken questions. Ask: “What is the team really good at? What does the team need to improve? And what is my own role in that?” If you ask those three questions to a person that interviews you, you’re getting a lot of input for yourself.

Chris Parker: That is brilliant. Werner, thank you so much for joining. This was super cool.

Werner Spronk: Likewise, I love being here.